Staks defends the blasphemy challenge, but then calls it "stupid"

I wanted to take on Staks and his defense of the Blasphemy Challenge. Needless to say he wasn't interested in a real conversation. Here's how our discourse went:


Hi,

I just saw your video defending the Blasphemy Challenge. Your first point in why atheists did the challenge is something I don't think is worth disputing because you admit that you're not afraid to go to a non-existing hell. I'm not so sure why atheists are so open about saying that they're brave enough to go to a non-existing place, though. To me, that doesn't strike me as a courageous act. It's like someone saying, "I have enough courage to go to a non-existing torture chamber." Well, whupdeedoo! Oh, and I also agree with you that the blasphemy challenge is indeed a "stupid challenge." However, your second point is of concern to me. You want us to leave you alone. Fine. But why must you insult our spiritual background doing it? Couldn't you guys have made a video that said, "I'm a proud and open atheist" without bringing in the Holy Spirit or our Bible into it? You guys specifically chose Christianity. Why couldn't *YOU* guys leave *US* alone?

Frank

Interesting Frank. I can only assume that you haven't looked around you. It is indeed brave to say that you aren't afraid of an non-existing hell... or the Christians who continually threaten to send us there to prove it's existance. Being left alone by Christians is more than just asking you guys to simply stop trying to "spread your good news" to us (which incidently enough is much harder than you might imagine). It means that we don't want you to base our common laws on your mythical beliefs. I'll make a deal with you, if you can get all Christianity off of our reproductive rights, scientific research, rights of gays, out of our national pledge, physical attacks, etc. etc. then atheists will stop revolting against your mythology in the war of ideas. But the problem is that Christians don't see it as a war of ideas, you guys (not you personally necessarily) want to take away our lives and our freedoms... with force you can get it to work. Christianity has tried force before (you know when they tortured and killed non-believers), but ultimately, it backfired on them. The Muslims haven't learned that yet and that is where they are now. But Christianity has learned that you can't just simply torture and kill non-believers, they have to win their hearts and souls by less obious means of coercion. People like you don't seem to realize what the Christian Right are doing and how they are on the attack. I don;t know if you even hold those beliefs, but if you don't you certainly don't seem to be doing much about it except for yelling at the victims to stop trying to defend themselves against their attackers. If you do share the Jerry Falwell approach to the Bible, than your message is even more insidious. So let me ask you, do you favor or not favor gay rights? Do you favor or not favor stem cell research, Do you favor or not favor science in science classes, Do you favor or not favor the freedom to watch porn, Do you favor or not favor, contraseptives in third world countries (and here at home), Do you favor or not favor forced prayer in school, do you favor or not favor keeping your religion on money, etc. etc.
-Staks

Hi Staks,

Thank you for your prompt reply.

You've assumed incorrectly, I have looked around me and I see atheists who think they are so brave to say that they are going to a place that they think doesn't exists anyway. If you think that's brave, Staks. Have it your way. However, I wouldn't say "To prove hell exists, you're going there!"

These "common laws" that you speak of were based on Christian philosophy, Staks. The Charles Darwin wasn't around during the writing of the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.

You said, "I'll make a deal with you, if you can get all Christianity off of our reproductive rights, scientific research, rights of gays, out of our national pledge, physical attacks, etc. etc. then atheists will stop revolting against your mythology in the war of ideas."

Interesting. Well, how about this, if you can get all atheists off of our secular school system where evolution is taught and assumed as a science without the benefit of our children questioning it, I'll consider your deal.

You said, "But the problem is that Christians don't see it as a war of ideas, you guys (not you personally necessarily) want to take away our lives and our freedoms... with force you can get it to work. Christianity has tried force before (you know when they tortured and killed non-believers), but ultimately, it backfired on them. The Muslims haven't learned that yet and that is where they are now. But Christianity has learned that you can't just simply torture and kill non-believers, they have to win their hearts and souls by less obious means of coercion. "

Well, personally, I see it as a war of ideas. Many Christians see our battle against atheism as a war of ideas. I can name you some of them if you like :o) But I see more atheists forcing their morals on Christians by murdering, torturing, or raping them in modern day China, Korea, etc. Atheists live a life of freedom compared to Christians around the world.

You said, "People like you don't seem to realize what the Christian Right are doing and how they are on the attack."

I don't necessarily like everybody in the Christian right, Staks. I can't stand people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell or Ted Haggard. To quote Star Wars, "You assume too much."

You said, "I don;t know if you even hold those beliefs, but if you don't you certainly don't seem to be doing much about it except for yelling at the victims to stop trying to defend themselves against their attackers."

I'm not telling you to stop trying to defend yourselves. Go ahead and defend yourselves. In fact, I'm emailing you to see how you'll defend yourself. Have I attacked you personally for that? I was just saying we would leave you alone if you didn't bring up our Bible into this "blasphemy challenge." I think you're overreacting a bit.

You said, "If you do share the Jerry Falwell approach to the Bible, than your message is even more insidious. So let me ask you, do you favor or not favor gay rights?"

Sure, I do. Gay people should have rights. But one things for sure they shouldn't have rights like Black people do, which they often unfairly parallel themselves too. Speaking as a man with black blood, I resent that sentiment. Gay people were never considered three-fifths of a man like black people. I'm okay with civil union, but I'm not okay with gay marriage or gay adoption, if that's what you mean.

You said, "Do you favor or not favor stem cell research..."

I'm okay with the research, but not taking human embryos.

You said, "...Do you favor or not favor science in science classes..."

I favor science in class. Let's hope then our children would have the opportunity to see how unscientific Darwinian evolution is then.

You said, "... Do you favor or not favor the freedom to watch porn..."

Watch it if you want.

You said, "...Do you favor or not favor, contraseptives in third world countries (and here at home)..."

Yes, I favor contraceptives. It won't do anything to stop AIDs, but hey, wear 'em if you want. Honestly, if your girlfriend had AIDs and she wanted to have sex, would you still copulate with her even with a condom on? Do you think that will stop you from getting AIDs?

You said, "... Do you favor or not favor forced prayer in school..."

I think prayer should be voluntary in school. It shouldn't be forced.

You said, "... do you favor or not favor keeping your religion on money, etc. etc."

Yes, I'm okay with "In God We Trus" in our currency.

Well Staks, you hardly even responded to my previous email. Instead, you gave me overreactions and your venting of angers toward Christians.

But, it was fun.

Frank

Frank,
When atheists say that they are brave for beign part of the Blasphemy Challenge, most are talking about being brave against CHRISTIANS who WILL send them death threats, Christians who might attack them on the street, Parents who might disown them, friends who might stop being friends. Now some atheists will say in their video that they look forward to Hell. That is what we call being funny. I know extremely religious people don't usually have much of a sense of humor, but I thought that common sense would at least clue you in there.

I hate to break it to you Frank, but the Constitution of the United States mentions religion in exactly two places. 1. No religious tests to hold public office. 2. No law respecting the establishment of a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise there of. The US Constitution is based of course on the Virgina Constitution (written by Deist Thomas Jefferson) and the Virgina Constitution was based on the philosophy of John Locke (an atheist). The idea of a social contract goes back even further than that. In fact, it predates Christianity.

You said Charles Darwin wasn't around during the writing of these documents. You are correct. But what's your point? Darwin wrote about his observations on the evolution of species, which last I checked had zero to do with law, common or otherwise. I think you think Darwin is the atheist god or something. He was a man who realized some interesting things. Some of which were wrong, but he had enough good ideas to get people thinking in that direction. Science have since revised the evolution theory. And I am sure we are not done with revising it. As more evidence and information becomes available, Science will rework the theory and adapt it. Religion doesn't really do that. God said it, and therefore it must be true. No reworking. God is unchanging right?

As for getting atheists to stop teaching children that Evolution is unquestionable truth... Done. Science doesn't teach that evolution is unquestionable Truth. That is what I was just saying. Evolution is a scientific theory based on mountains of evidence. All that evidence is open for scientific peer review. Kids are taught that while evolution itself is a fact, the theory of how it works is constantly being revised. If kids study hard and learn more about science, they can look for flaws and be extremely critical of that theory or any other theory. If they find one and it can be peer reviewed, the theory will change to the new data. That is how science works Frank. Here is how religion works. You start with the unquestioning Truth and then you do what ever you can to destroy, slant, and outright lie about any evidence which MIGHT contradict the unquestionable Truth. Here is an example: Sciences around the world are trying to find holes in the theory of evolution so that they can adapt the theory and make it more accurate. Christian apoligists have the Truth that there was a world wide flood 6000 years ago. Now they are all looking for the proof. Many people died was being skeptical about this flood. Many more were tortured.

Atheists are murdering everyone and eating babies. I see. I find that babies taste best with duck sauce. I don't know why. Just so there is no confussion here, that was a joke. I know how you wacky religious people are with humor. In any case, you should watch my video about the evil atheist Stalin. He was one bad dude. Oh, but then there were all the people that Christians murdered and tortured. I am actually going to make another video on this very topic is a few weeks. But for now, the Stalin video I made will have to do.

While I am glad that you don't agree with Robertson or Falwell, I never implied that you did. I said that I didn't know if you shared their beliefs or not, but if you did... In any case, I love the star wars quote.

The fact is that there wouldn't be an atheist at all if Christians weren't "spreading the good news" at any cost. The Blasphemy Challenge started a few months ago. Christians have been forcing religion on people for 2000 years. While it used to be (as little as 50 years ago) a death sense to say that you didn't believe in Jesus as a God, now Christianity has evolved slightly. They don't usually torture and kill infidels any more. But Christianity still tries to force themselves into our laws. If we stopped the Blasphemy Challenge today, that wouldn't change at all. You know this is true. Here's the thing, I do have to power to stop the Blasphemy Challenge if I really wanted to, but you don't have the power to stop all of Christianity from forcing their mythology on the world. Write there, that should tell you something.

Gays: So all people should have equal rights... except gay people? Gay people aren't trying to parallel themselves to black people. They are paralleling themselves to people. And for the record, yes they are people and should be allowed to marry and adopt like everyone else. Why shouldn't they?

Stem Cell Research: So you are saying that scientists can to stem cell research, but without the stem cells? This makes sense to you? What if the stem cells they were going to use were stem cells that were just going to be thrown away anyway? Would you rather these cells go toward curing disease or feeding maggots?

Science in science class: Darwin Evolution is taught in history class, not science class. Modern Evolution is taught in science class, because it is solid science.

Contraceptives: You don't think condoms will help save at least one life? Wow, did you know that your friends in the Christian Right refused to let the red cross give contraceptives to people in Africa. Do you know how many people died as a result of that? More than 911, that's for sure.

Prayer in schools: this is my favorite. "Atheists took god out of the schools." Last I checked every student has the right (which I would believe it or not defend) to pray in school... in a non-disruptive fashion. The school doesn't have the right to force Prayer Time on students. And I would fight to keep it that way as well.

God we trust: Did you know that these things weren't on our money or our pledge. They were put there during the time of th red scare. Why? Because Christians wanted to FORCE their religion on everyone and took advantage of scared and frightened people. You're okay with that? Let me ask you, if out of fear of another terrorist attack, some congressman proposed to change "In God we Trust" to "In Alah we Trust" to help appease tentions... and it passed, would you be okay with that? I don't think you would. So your okay with IGWT not because you agree with it in principle, but because it benifits you. Wouldn't it be better to not have it and let everyone believe whatever they choose. I am not advocation "In No Gods We Trust" (Which would be the atheist equivalent). Why? because that wouldn't be right. It would break the social contract. ;-)
-Staks

Hi Staks,

"When atheists say that they are brave for beign part of the Blasphemy Challenge, most are talking about being brave against CHRISTIANS who WILL send them death threats, Christians who might attack them on the street, Parents who might disown them, friends who might stop being friends. Now some atheists will say in their video that they look forward to Hell. That is what we call being funny. I know extremely religious people don't usually have much of a sense of humor, but I thought that common sense would at least clue you in there."

You did not bring this up in your video. You're revising your statement after seeing how wrong you were.

"I hate to break it to you Frank, but the Constitution of the United States mentions religion in exactly two places. 1. No religious tests to hold public office. 2. No law respecting the establishment of a national religion or prohibiting the free exercise there of. The US Constitution is based of course on the Virgina Constitution (written by Deist Thomas Jefferson) and the Virgina Constitution was based on the philosophy of John Locke (an atheist). The idea of a social contract goes back even further than that. In fact, it predates Christianity."

Well jiminy jillickers, Staks! Did you know that in the notes of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson said,

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever.”

Anyway...

"You said Charles Darwin wasn't around during the writing of these documents. You are correct. But what's your point?"

He had no influence on it.

"Darwin wrote about his observations on the evolution of species, which last I checked had zero to do with law, common or otherwise. I think you think Darwin is the atheist god or something."

Nope. He was actually an agnostic.

"He was a man who realized some interesting things. Some of which were wrong, but he had enough good ideas to get people thinking in that direction. Science have since revised the evolution theory. And I am sure we are not done with revising it. As more evidence and information becomes available, Science will rework the theory and adapt it. Religion doesn't really do that. God said it, and therefore it must be true. No reworking. God is unchanging right?"

And evolution has it where it's nature said it, and therefore it must be true. Always reworking. Nature has no absolute values, just matter and motion, right?

"As for getting atheists to stop teaching children that Evolution is unquestionable truth... Done."

Nope. Dover proved it's not just "Done." Our children are given bogus evidence to prove a so-called theory called evolution.

"Science doesn't teach that evolution is unquestionable Truth."

Wrong again.

"That is what I was just saying. Evolution is a scientific theory based on mountains of evidence. All that evidence is open for scientific peer review. Kids are taught that while evolution itself is a fact, the theory of how it works is constantly being revised. If kids study hard and learn more about science, they can look for flaws and be extremely critical of that theory or any other theory. If they find one and it can be peer reviewed, the theory will change to the new data. That is how science works Frank. Here is how religion works. You start with the unquestioning Truth and then you do what ever you can to destroy, slant, and outright lie about any evidence which MIGHT contradict the unquestionable Truth. Here is an example: Sciences around the world are trying to find holes in the theory of evolution so that they can adapt the theory and make it more accurate. Christian apoligists have the Truth that there was a world wide flood 6000 years ago."

Actually, the flood was a little after 6,000 years ago. Personally, I don't think the world is 6,000 years old. So not all Christians are young earth creationists.

"Now they are all looking for the proof. Many people died was being skeptical about this flood. Many more were tortured."

Yeah, I'm sure many of them were killed and murdered by atheists.

Frank

"Atheists are murdering everyone and eating babies. I see. I find that babies taste best with duck sauce. I don't know why. Just so there is no confussion here, that was a joke. I know how you wacky religious people are with humor."

Uh, okay. But I never said you like eating babies. Have it your way...

"In any case, you should watch my video about the evil atheist Stalin. He was one bad dude. Oh, but then there were all the people that Christians murdered and tortured. I am actually going to make another video on this very topic is a few weeks. But for now, the Stalin video I made will have to do."

... okay.

"While I am glad that you don't agree with Robertson or Falwell, I never implied that you did. I said that I didn't know if you shared their beliefs or not, but if you did... In any case, I love the star wars quote."

Thanks.

"The fact is that there wouldn't be an atheist at all if Christians weren't 'spreading the good news' at any cost. The Blasphemy Challenge started a few months ago. Christians have been forcing religion on people for 2000 years. While it used to be (as little as 50 years ago) a death sense to say that you didn't believe in Jesus as a God, now Christianity has evolved slightly. They don't usually torture and kill infidels any more. But Christianity still tries to force themselves into our laws. If we stopped the Blasphemy Challenge today, that wouldn't change at all. You know this is true."

Personally, I don't even care.

"Here's the thing, I do have to power to stop the Blasphemy Challenge if I really wanted to, but you don't have the power to stop all of Christianity from forcing their mythology on the world. Write there, that should tell you something."

What, that you're begging the question when you call Christianity a myth. Gotcha.

"Gays: So all people should have equal rights... except gay people? Gay people aren't trying to parallel themselves to black people."

Yes, they are! Clearly, you have not looked up on this. I cannot believe you just said that. Have you not heard what even leftist pundits like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have been saying about how Gays parallel themselves to us?

"They are paralleling themselves to people."

Yeah, in spite of black people.

"And for the record, yes they are people and should be allowed to marry and adopt like everyone else. Why shouldn't they?"

Because it's wrong. But what's right or wrong in an evolutionary worldview is relative anyway. As William Provine said, "Let me summarize my views on what modern evolutionary biology tells us loud and clear -- and these are basically Darwin's views. There are no gods, no purposes, and no goal-directed forces of any kind. There is no life after death. When I die, I am absolutely certain that I am going to be dead. That's the end of me. There is no ultimate foundation for ethics, no ultimate meaning in life, and no free will for humans, either. What an unintelligible idea."

"Stem Cell Research: So you are saying that scientists can to stem cell research, but without the stem cells? This makes sense to you? What if the stem cells they were going to use were stem cells that were just going to be thrown away anyway? Would you rather these cells go toward curing disease or feeding maggots?"

Hmm, you didn't seem to see my point on the embryo. Typical.

"Science in science class: Darwin Evolution is taught in history class, not science class. Modern Evolution is taught in science class, because it is solid science."

Bull. Darwinian evolution is taught. You may be the only atheist I know who actually thinks that Darwinian evolution is not taught in our biology classes. Weird.

"Contraceptives: You don't think condoms will help save at least one life?"

I didn't say that it didn't. You specifically looked over the part where I said I wasn't against condom use. And like what you've done earlier, you dodged my question on whether you would still use a condom with someone who had AIDs.

"Wow, did you know that your friends in the Christian Right refused to let the red cross give contraceptives to people in Africa. Do you know how many people died as a result of that? More than 911, that's for sure."

... okay. And how much do you think condoms helps prevents the AIDs virus? Hardly at all.

"Prayer in schools: this is my favorite. 'Atheists took god out of the schools.'"

I didn't say that. Uh, are you mistaking me for somebody else? It looks like you had something preplanned here and decided to just copy and paste it to me.

"Last I checked every student has the right (which I would believe it or not defend) to pray in school... in a non-disruptive fashion."

Yes, I didn't deny that.

"The school doesn't have the right to force Prayer Time on students. And I would fight to keep it that way as well."

... okay.

"God we trust: Did you know that these things weren't on our money or our pledge."

Yes.

"They were put there during the time of th red scare. Why? Because Christians wanted to FORCE their religion on everyone and took advantage of scared and frightened people. You're okay with that?"

No.

"Let me ask you, if out of fear of another terrorist attack, some congressman proposed to change "In God we Trust" to "In Alah we Trust" to help appease tentions... and it passed, would you be okay with that?"

No.

"I don't think you would. So your okay with IGWT not because you agree with it in principle, but because it benifits you."

No. Because like a democracy we agreed to have that in our currency.

"Wouldn't it be better to not have it and let everyone believe whatever they choose."

... okay.

"I am not advocation "In No Gods We Trust" (Which would be the atheist equivalent). Why? because that wouldn't be right. It would break the social contract. ;-)"

Okay.

Well, Staks, you obviously are good at skipping my email and dodging its implications. But you are good at pretending to know what I know. And you're also good at copying and pasting said information that wasn't even really discussed or in the point of the discussion. Perhaps, a lesson in proper debate etiquette will help?

Thanks, we could have had a better discussion, but it didn't seem like you wanted to engage in any real meaningful sense. I would hope you don't dodge this much. It would prevent you from growing intellectually and maturely as a person.

Just some healthy advice ;o)

Yours,

Frank

Frank, at no time did I copy and paste. However, I have been debating Christians like yourself for a very long time. So at some points of your argument I skipped ahead alittle. I want to briefly challenge you on a few things.

1. Thomas Jefferson did right those things in the virgina Constitution. However, later in his life he learned that he was wrong. He then took the Bible and went through it with a fine tooth comb and took out all the stuff he didn't agree with... which was a lot. You can now go to most bookstores and find the Jeffersonian Bible and see for yourself which parts he believed. Basicly he ended up supporting deism (the belief that a god exists, created the natural world, and let it go).

2. You talk about Darwin as if to attack his idea. YOu also seem to think that his idea is what modern evolution is. darwin was just a guy like any other. He is not an atheist (or even and agnostic) god. You could tell me that Darwin was a baby eater, and that still wouldn't disprove anything. He made an observation and wrote about it. Modern Science has taken that Idea and found faults with it. They have since revised the theory and they continue to revise the theory. I don't think you get that. You talk about these otherthings that Darwin believed and you quote them as if to say that I must also believe those things becaue darwin is the atheist god. He isn't and most atheists in the greater atheist community don't believe those things.
You claim that atheists must have no purpose. You couldn't be more wrong. Of course atheists have a purpose. You also implied that atheists have no basis for morality. Also wrong. You should just google "atheist morality" or something like that and see what you find. I really don't feel like getting into that with someone who has his mind made up.

Speaking of morality... What is your basis for it? Why is gay marriage wrong but straight marriage okay? Why is gay aduption wrong, but single parent aduption okay? What is your basis for this "Truth."

Okay, okay, I am pretty sure I know your not too thought out answer. So let me destroy it before you even write it. And no, this is not a copy/paste job. You are going to say God or The Bible. So let me say this, You can't know God's view except through your Bible and your bible also says slavery is ay-okay with God... provided that you treat your hebrew slaves well of course. So why are you disobeying God when you claim slavery is wrong? What is your distification for this? What is the basis for your morality? You see how much better the social contract model is? No you probably don't.

I also find it interesting that whenever I point something out to you about the horrors that Christianity commits, you suddenly don't care. Maybe you should care. Maybe then you wouldn't have a screen name TheismBeatsAtheism. Maybe if you actually did care about people other than yoruself, you would try to stop the injustices being committed by your friends. Maybe you would realize that gay people getting married has exactly zero effect on your life or anyone elses and gives those people a lot of happiness. As for your question that you think I snubbed, If my wife had aids, I was still have sex with her... with a condom (not for my health, but for hers).
-Staks

Hmm, I just wanted to talk about the Blasphemy Challenge, but it veered off in a totally different direction about prayers in school, stem-cell research, homosexuality, condom use, etc. Either way, in the end, I saw no serious defense for the Blasphemy Challenge. Just red herrings. If this is all an atheist can do to defend this Challenge then I think Christians are in pretty good shape!